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Cleave Baxter, recognized as one of the foremost polygraph experts in the world today, teaches

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the various law enforcement agencies how to use their equipment and what it means when

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they do use it.

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Mr. Baxter is all over the country much of the time in this effort, but what probably

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caught the eye of many of you as it has me was his experimentation and his discovery of

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the principle of emotional rapport between plants and animals.

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The most unusual and unexpected sort of thing, both he and Marcel Vogel have done considerable

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research in this regard.

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In fact, a book was written, which I read was a great deal of interest, describing

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in considerable detail Mr. Baxter's efforts and it was called the Secret Life of Plants.

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Cleave Baxter has used the polygraph to great advantage in bringing the truth out and that

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same technique we have found has been so useful in determining whether or not someone really

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did have a UFO experience.

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It's a pleasure to introduce to you Cleave Baxter who will tell us about the efficacy

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of the polygraph in determining the validity of UFO encounters.

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Cleave.

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Thank you, Hal.

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I'm not totally sure why I'm here talking before this group, but I think I can interconnect

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my only encounter with a UFO or a UFO activity is my close encounter of the, I don't know

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what kind, with your friend Philip Klass.

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That was a close encounter.

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I haven't met him personally, nor particularly caretue, but I'll have a few remarks to say

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about that later.

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But my theme to try to interconnect the work that I've been doing with plants and cellular

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perception in general and UFO activity probably can be drawn from the theme unacceptable discoveries

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or pending discoveries from outer versus inner space because I think that I'm having the

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same problems looking within down to cellular level and cellular consciousness as many problems

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as you're having looking outward towards space activity in interacting with the scientific

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community.

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And this isn't science in general, but it is, I'd say misbehaving, represents misbehaving

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scientists who don't quite know how to handle unhandy information.

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So I think we have lots of parallels in our pursuit in that regard.

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And I will try to draw some parallels between the your interest in mind in that regard.

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I think both of these interests involve extremely high quality observations.

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I've made many high quality observations and videotaped them and so forth.

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As far as the plant perception work is concerned, and of course your UFO sightings involve high

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quality observations, particularly the ones that you feel are verified.

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And the typical stance of the misbehaving scientists is that they can just overlook even hundreds

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or thousands of high quality observations.

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And if you can't make something jump through a hoop ten times upon command, it just doesn't

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qualify as something worthy of their pursuit.

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Now this is a direct violation of scientific methodology.

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And yet these are the people that are attempting to be so scientific.

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Also I'll close, of course, by getting over into the area of polygraph usage.

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And my background, at the present time, I'm chairman of the Research and Instrument Committee

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of each of the two national and only two national organizations that we have in the polygraph

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field.

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I'm chairman of the Research Committee and have been since 19...

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Oh, let's see.

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This is back overlapping my encounter with friend class.

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1976 to the present, chairman of the APA or American Polygraph Association Research and

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Instrument Committee.

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From 1977 to the present, chairman of the American Association of Police Polygraphists

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Research Committee.

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And from 1975 to the present, chairman of the California Association of Polygraph Examiners

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Research Committee.

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And also I've graduated approximately a thousand polygraph examiners into the field.

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And I would say that my interaction has been very direct with between three and four thousand

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polygraph examiners.

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Also I've testified before Congress on two occasions and have been a member of the board

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of directors for four years of the American Polygraph Association.

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Now the only reason this becomes sort of interesting is that right in the midst of all of this

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background in regard to my polygraph expertise, you're, I don't want to call me your friend,

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but your acquaintance Philip Klass disqualified me as being, you know, the appropriate one

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to run the Travis Walton crew, which was initially scheduled.

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So that's rather interesting that apparently he inquired enough to find out that I was open-minded

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and then decided that that would never do.

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So because in my interaction with him, which was a very sort of a frustrating period of

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communication exchange going from about November 75 to February 76, I never saw such a bunch

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of trivia and dribble as far as considerations that he thought were important.

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But apparently his idea of polygraph examinations is whoever gets to the polygraph examiner

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first has got him, you know.

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And so his emphasis revolved around whether there had been any comment made to me or any

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discussion about the Travis Walton case before the initial contact by Lorenzen and the APRO

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group.

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So because I didn't feel that it was pertinent and told him so, I said that it makes absolutely

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no difference how much information from either side that I gathered isn't going to prejudice

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me in any way.

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He wasn't satisfied with that.

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And unless I told him, each and every contact, he was going to use that as the basis of disqualification,

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which is what he ended up doing.

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I think that man has a mind that is so totally closed like a drum that we're just foolish

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to interact with him because all he's going to do is use negative aspects or ambiguous

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aspects against us and absolutely nothing for us.

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So let that little message trickle back to class.

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And he didn't bother to contact me because I'm not going to waste any more time with him.

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So you can save himself trouble.

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Now, what I want to do briefly now that I got that off my mind is to very rapidly run through

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some slides that represent the kind of work that I'm doing.

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And I'm not going to spend much time on it at all.

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Probably maybe seven or eight minutes.

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To show you the scope of the work that's being done.

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And also, I think to probably show you why the reaction that does take place takes place with with basically unhandy information.

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Now, if I'm right about my primary perception hypothesis and if the human consciousness can indeed interact with biological materials that are part of experiments and biology, it would seem to indicate a need to reevaluate almost every

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biologically oriented experiment to be sure that it wasn't the desire of the experiment that caused the result rather than the actual data produced by the process that's being reported on.

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Now, that's a parallel to your problem with UFOs where the technology that certainly would have to be evident if you have O's are reality and can do some of the things that were mentioned earlier today.

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Right hand turns at the several thousand miles an hour and so forth.

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In other words, the handling in a better way of inertia and gravity.

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I think you can see the parallel of what I would be doing with the biological community.

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The same as you would be doing as far as engineering and physics is concerned.

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So the method as I can glean the method of handling these things is to try to make bleeds are not happening and ignore them.

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Try to sweep them under the rug. And there are some tactics used that in no way resemble sound science in handling this.

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And I think that your efforts and my efforts have both gone through this.

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OK, let's just quickly go through these. Now, this was basically the thing that got me started back in 1966.

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I've been working with plants for well over 13 years and other biological organisms that I'll mention.

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And I've been working with people 31 years over 31 years.

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And so I'm quite used to reading the psychophysiological readout as far as plants are concerned.

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Now, this was the initial time that I had attached to the scene.

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It came to a polygraph and at that particular place where you see the jump.

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This is where I was attempting to do something that would be similar to a threat to the well being of the plant,

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because I was seeing reactions on the prior portions of the chart that seemed to indicate that the plant was showing me reaction similar to a person on galvanic skin response, taking a polygraph test.

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And at that point in thinking of what would be a threat to the well being of the plant, I thought and not only thought but intended to burn the very leaf that I had the electrode attached to.

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And the second that the imagery of the fire entered my mind is when that tracing went up right off the top of the page and it stayed up there and went into wild agitation.

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So this is the thing that opened this for me and got me started.

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I said to myself at the time it's almost like that thing read my mind because I wasn't touching the equipment.

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I wasn't near the plant. I had no matches in my hand. It wasn't a question of lighting a match.

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I had to go next door to get a match and so forth. OK.

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Briefly, that was the start of the whole thing 13 years ago.

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After that, for about two and a half years, I made hundreds of hours of observations trying to see what this had to show me rather than to make premature demands and try to prematurely go toward a repeatable experiment or one that's hopefully repeatable.

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And I saw that the plant that I was testing seemed very, very sensitive to the well being of other life forms in the laboratory area.

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I found that if you poured hot water down the sink and hadn't done this for a while before and killed bacteria, the plant at the other end of the laboratory would pick up that happening.

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And a number of things, dozens of things that seemed to hint that plants were very, very much attuned to the well being of other life forms in the area.

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So I designed an experiment involving the automated dropping of Brian shrimp and simmering water at one end of the laboratory.

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And the plants were being recorded at the other end of the laboratory, three separate plants, three separate polygraphs.

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The thing totally automated because I'd found that if human consciousness was left intact, the plants priority wise would be attuned to you, the experimenter, and not the subtleties that you were trying to work into your experiment.

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So that was the initial experiment and it was published back in winter of 1968.

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These are the Brian shrimp and a little cop. It's about one inch across the Brian shrimp being organisms that have rather heavy karma anyway, in terms of metaphysics, I guess.

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I didn't feel too guilty about expediting their their demise. So these are the ones that were used.

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Now, this is the diagram of the laboratory at that time back in New York City, where it went into the laboratory.

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There was a randomizer that selected the time of the drop of the Brian shrimp and a programmer that actually caused the drop to occur.

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An empty room in between going left the polygraph room with four polygraphs, three of which were hooked to separate plants in separate rooms and a fourth.

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It was a control device. And basically the thing that happened is when the Brian shrimp were killed and one ends the lab, the plants were reacting at the other end.

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And I was getting extremely good data on that successful experiment.

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Now, there was a lot of preparation in order to automate that experiment and a lot of care that had to go into actually being sure that you got your consciousness out of the experiment.

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And I won't get into the difficulties in trying to get across the concepts to the scientific community.

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In other words, the individuals that were relishing more of the failure to repeat this experiment were willing to attempt part, but not the other part of the requirements of the experiment.

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Now, fortunately, you need to to perform the experiment exactly as the original experiment or you're not really failing the experiment.

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And they were not willing to face the problems of the very hypothesis that the consciousness of the investigator could be distorting the results.

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So they would not do that properly, but then they would chug right on through the bad data and write it up and print it and report on and so forth.

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And there have been two occasions where that's been done and I won't get into the details, although there are adequate details available.

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Now, basically this is another here.

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I'm monitoring. I got over into the monitoring of chicken eggs as a sort of a single cell organism before cellular division and non fertile egg.

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It sort of is very similar to single cell.

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And in testing the chicken egg, the only thing that happened there is this is in the middle of the night.

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My Siamese cat came down the hall and I picked up the cat and he didn't want to be picked up.

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And he was sort of showing some generated emotion.

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And that's all. And at the very time that happened, this is the kind of interaction between the cat in this case and the chicken egg of all things that's being tested.

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This is the cat. So my very scientific design.

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I wasn't taking that that time. But later and they're very feisty as you people know that have a Siamese cat.

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But I see dozens and dozens of these interactions, high quality observations between animal life of various types in the laboratory.

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Now, this involves again the dropping.

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I'd worked all night and I forgot to eat the night before and it was too early to go out to a restaurant in the Times Square area.

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So I thought, well, I'm not going to starve to death. I got all these chicken eggs here.

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And so I took two chicken eggs that I was going to have for breakfast.

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And in the meantime, I attached another egg and did a monitoring.

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This is a tracing of the other egg that's remotely located and about 30 feet away from where the other two eggs for breakfast were dropped in a small pan of hot water.

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Now you can see where they were dropped with those two dark lines that come down and then the delay while the heat apparently is penetrating the eggs in the pairs of reaction to occur after that.

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So here again, I won't get into details of the aftermath of that and other things done.

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But it's another example of interaction, biological interaction, in this case, for one chicken egg to another.

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OK. Now, to make a long story short on this, I found that the thing that I needed to do if you tried to demand and attain.

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Meaningful observations, you actually prevented them. In other words, you're trying to to cause these things to happen, expecting them to happen.

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You wouldn't see them if you allowed them to unfold in a spontaneous fashion. No problem. You get dozens of them.

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So this led to an emphasis on using videotape equipment over the chart drive.

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Now I use a split screen generator where half of the screen involves the tracing and the other half the scene that's being studied in the in the time study.

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And I'm doing a great deal of work now using split screen devices, videotaping the recording where I can actually leave the laboratory for certain things.

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Or have things happen spontaneously in other ways. And just day after day, there just dozens of things that come up to keep reinforcing the basic concept.

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This involves the two of Simon's fighting fishing in the aquarium and down below is a plant hooked up nearby.

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And when the fish make a pass at each other, I'm getting reactions on the plant outside of the aquarium.

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In other words, getting interaction here between hostility generated from the fish and the plant being monitored.

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This is another device where I wasn't getting as accurate a time studies I wanted by having to fish in the aquarium because they look across the aquarium at each other and show hostility without motion that could be studied.

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So I hear I'm using a mirror. This is an automated mirror that drops down into the small aquarium.

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And when the Simon's fish sees the mirror, they can't tell the difference.

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They're a little stupid and very hostile and maybe a connection. But anyway, the mirror goes up and down.

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The fish gets over and then gets hostile again when it comes down.

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And this is allowing me to pinpoint the stimulus much better for the either I can use bacteria and monitor bacteria contained in yogurt.

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Now I want to swing over to equal eye and because lots of work has been done scientifically on that with very good ongoing results.

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This is the mirror down and the fish is looking at and flaring when the mirror is down.

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And this involves where I'm trying to get human emotion back into it in a very cautious manner using three or four people watching a advent video TV projector.

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Here I was trying to use a snake for stimulus, but there have been so many nature shows on the air and so forth.

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I'm afraid snakes don't stimulate people much anymore.

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In fact, the neutral material that British broadcasting had sent over for me to use in connection with the document called the green machine.

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Some of you may have seen this about ended up covering my work again.

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They sent some nice scenes of cliffs and, you know, the castle and so forth.

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But it turned out that the cliffs were the people that were afraid of heights were showing me more stimulus than the snake.

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So we're back to the drawing board on material and that we're continuing to work on that where we hope to have material developed where we can get something where we can predict.

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And then to predict the stimulus value of the material shown and the neutral value and then provide this film piece to individuals wishing to do replication where there are carelessness in automating their carelessness and doing all of the things that were necessary or are necessary in the Brian Shrimp experiment aren't important here.

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And this would enhance the chances of getting replication.

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This involves my laboratory. In fact, my laboratory is located here in town. It's over 2000 square feet.

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In fact, it's the lab set up by the US Treasury Department and turned over to the Drug Enforcement Agency.

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They know I was coming to town, but then they moved closer to the border and I inherited all of their permanent equipment, all the lab benches and the drawers.

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I'd say 50 to $75,000 worth of equipment just sitting there for nothing.

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So anyway, it's a very substantial lab space and very adequate for the work that's being done.

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The wing of the lab goes over about as far as you see here over in the other direction.

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And then I have another lab annex in the top floor of the building where I can get separation by elevating certain of the experiments that I'm doing.

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OK, this involves human sperm, a sample of human sperm being tested about 40 feet away from the donor who will remain

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anonymous. And the thing that was done here is that an amyl nitrite, otherwise known by young people as a popper, was snapped.

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And the very split second that it was crushed between the fingers is that first jump of the tracing and the inhalation is the second series of jumps.

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And this is 40 feet between doors closed, about three separate doors closed.

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And the sperm sample is in a shielded metal box and so forth.

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And yet this is the kind of interaction that's going on in this inner space that I'm talking about.

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And this is something concerning white cells.

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I'm now I've learned how to collect white cells from the mouth and by using saline wrench and then centrifuging the saline.

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I can get mucus that contains millions of white cells that are not temperature sensitive because they work in the mouth and they live up to six hours after they're taken away from the mouth.

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So I can work up to six hours with these, putting electrodes in them and doing a correlation of the emotions of the donor and electrical signals from the mucus sample and testing.

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And I'm getting very good initial results on this.

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So this has so many implications as far as our thought and the quality of our thought is concerned.

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And every cell of the body. Now here are the things that I was doing here.

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I'll admit to this being my white cells. And I was back at the shelf in the back of the laboratory looking for a little Lancet, a story lands, a sterile Lancet to cut my hand a little bit to put some iodine in.

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I want to see what would happen. And this is when I was dreaming up the idea and looking for the sterile Lancets.

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Much more of a huge reaction here. Then later on when I did it, it was all sort of all over with.

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It definitely showed it all. It's only when I'm thinking about doing it that this happened.

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And we get dozens of these things. OK.

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Basically, I went through those rapidly and it's hard to to do it rationally.

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But I stand a better chance for this group than most in rushing along that way.

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So I know that it isn't a complete explanation, but it gives you the kind of work that I'm doing.

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Now, I think you can see the difficulties that I'm having in interacting with the scientific community, particularly the biologists and the botanists that are very parallel to the problems that you're having.

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In your work, getting away from that as the as the area that is the thorn that I'm providing for for certain of the people in the scientific community.

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Let's get to the basic problem and how one does interact in a reliable way with the scientific community.

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I think there's some things that need to be kept in mind. First, you've got your obstructionist as far as the scientific community is concerned.

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I consider the misbehaving scientists, but they anything is new, unusual.

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They're out to try to slow down or impede.

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Now, to me, one of the prime groups that do that involves a take off from a group connected with the Humanist magazine, which is the voice of the American Humanist Association.

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There's a committee for the scientific investigation of claims of the paranormal.

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Now, this is a bunch of about the most close minded people as far as I'm concerned and any evidence that I've seen that you could possibly gather together.

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And they have something called the Zetetic and later I think is a Zetetic scholar now and also something called the Skeptical Inquirer that are that are publications.

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These people are something else. They're they're the classes, one of them, naturally. Martin Gardner, James Randy, the magician.

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You know, you've got to have one of those. And it seems that the thing, the tactic that's being used is a direct frontal, a direct attack on the integrity of individuals that they're interacting with.

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The first thing they want to say is they must be cheating. No. What's the gimmick?

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You know, have a magician stand over and look, this is a real has nothing to do with true science.

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And if you want to to read a reference that does a much better job of really analyzing these people and their problems, you want to read a article by Theodore Rockwell and his two sons, Robert Rockwell and Tied Rockwell.

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Is used to be the right hand assistant to Admiral Rick over and he's very highly placed in the scientific field and his is not.

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He's not making any decisions as to whether there's merit or not merit to many of the things that are being discussed.

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He said that isn't important. He is criticizing his two sons along with them.

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The method that the scientific community or scientists in the community are using to try to attack the very things that they don't understand or show no inclination toward pursuing.

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And it's called the irrational rationalists as a critique of the humanist crusade against parapsychology.

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And any of you that have a chance to look that up in the Journal of the American Society for Psychological Research in the volume 72 January 1978.

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And it really does it much better than I can do. And they're well qualified to do that.

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Now, let's get around to the subject material of the polygraph usage.

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As far as UFO investigations are concerned, first, I would have some reservations.

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I don't think the polygraph is a cure all for answering many of the problems that may come up.

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I think you've got problems as it relates to the quality of the incident as it lends itself well to the polygraph.

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In other words, in the polygraph field in our ordinary use of the product, a polygraph for criminal investigation,

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we consider three things in trying is what we call the pre examination reliability estimate as far as the polygraph is concerned.

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In other words, every test polygraph isn't a polygraph on every occasion merely because you attach someone to these things and ask questions.

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We're interested in knowing the adequacy of the case information, one of the three factors.

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How much information do you have? Do you have enough information to select an appropriate target to pursue and to word meaningful questions that don't allow for rationalization?

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The second thing is the strength of issue.

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Now, this is one thing if there is a weakness in polygraph usage in confirmatory type tests, which is to a degree would be to try to confirm a story.

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Ordinarily, in confirmatory tests as involves individuals in police work, the chances of these people getting any trouble is very remote.

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So it lacks strength of issue in the average confirmatory testing situation.

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And we're somewhat critical of it for that reason.

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But now you're getting over into an area where there is such a charge as far as social stigma is concerned, as far as ridicule is concerned,

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or as far as opportunism is concerned, if someone is trying to misuse a fault involvement or overdo something that was partially legitimate,

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that we, I think, have more strength of issue to plug.

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One of the things would tend to be a bit weak as far as polygraph usage is concerned in testing situation.

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Now, the third factor is the distinctness of issue. If the person saw it, do they know what they saw?

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Or is there lots of room for ambiguity? Now, here in the distinctness of issue, you would have to be careful of the individual who is very vague and apparently may have been subject to some kind of instruction or some kind of process on the part of the individual.

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Individuals involved in the contact.

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If there was some kind of hypnotic suggestion that they were not to talk to other people and you were to get a hold of that person and attempt to test them on the on the polygraph,

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there's a question of whether that would weaken the situation as far as the distinctness of issues concerned if there was not clear cut memory.

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So if no clear cut memory is claimed, I wouldn't think the polygraph would be appropriate.

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In other words, the person should be very certain concerning what they feel did happen where there's not that kind of room for ambiguity.

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Now, if the situation, if the incident stacks up properly, as far as those three factors are concerned, adequate case information, select your target and make your questions,

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a degree of strength of issue that would be involved and distinctness of issue.

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You have something that would be very adequate as far as its treatment is concerned with the polygraph providing.

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And here comes some interesting provide provides of us.

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The Travis Walton case, as I understand it, had a fair amount of polygraph involvement before I was asked initially to to become involved.

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And as I understand it, the the alleged abduction or abduction, whichever, I'm trying to be totally impartial, because I don't know whether Travis Walton is telling the truth or not.

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As I stand here, I am totally open minded. And apparently this is what kills class.

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You know, I am really open. I have no feeling for the thing whatsoever.

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So initially before Travis Walton reappeared after the alleged abduction, the Arizona Department of Public Safety got quite concerned that there may have been foul

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play and that these six individuals on that tree cutting team may have, for whatever reason, committed a crime and were trying to hide the crime, perhaps by reporting the UFO abduction.

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So the six were tested by Cy Gilson of the Arizona Department of Public Safety and polygraph examinations on the six crew members, five of them passed.

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One of them is inconclusive merely because of the person of the person's general nervous tension, not because there was any failure.

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In other words, we have three determinations in polygraph testing.

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In our opinion, they're being truthful. In our opinion, they're being deceptive or we don't know.

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Now, it's very important to find an examiner who knows how to say he doesn't know.

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In other words, if you get someone that's ego oriented and feels they must always come up with an answer, they may be making their answer on two week.

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A situation as far as the chart interpretation is concerned.

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So you have to be very careful that the individual is not afraid to say doesn't know and doesn't know.

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So here again, that was the initial polygraph involvement.

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Then the test was run and I understand it was sponsored by National Inquirer by a Jack McCarthy, an examiner I've known the examiner socially for years.

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And he tested Travis Walton. And apparently the results of that came out that Walton was attempting deception.

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And then later in February 7th, George Pfeiffer, another private examiner in the Arizona area, tested Travis Walton.

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I think Dwayne Walton, the brother, and also Mary, I think it's Colette, which is Travis's mother.

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And he reported that all three of these individuals passed the test.

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Now, I found a fair amount of hostility, even among polygraph examiners, when I was about to get involved in this close encounter situation of almost running the tests.

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I would like to have been able to run. We had polygraph examiners that got all upset and were writing to our ethics committee, the American Polygraph Association.

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It was something that bothered me a bit because you will have some of those.

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But there can be emotions involved.

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There can be examiners who may be emotionally involved in the thing, who don't believe in UFOs.

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Now, if you get one that is absolutely sure there is no such thing and he gets charts that are difficult to read.

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And if he is one of those, I'm not saying this is the case here, but if he is one of those that likes always to come up with a firm answer, either truth or deception,

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do you see how the temptation could be to bet on what he feels inwardly would be a sure thing?

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So I mean, it would be a human characteristic.

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So I think it's extremely important that you know of the open-mindedness of the examiner to which you're involving in polygraph activity.

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As far as UFOs are concerned, I think my stance right along is that I'm just totally open-minded.

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Hey, anyone that messes with plants like I do has to be open-minded about UFOs.

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So in other words, there's no one that's more super straight than I am as far as ethical and proper and competent polygraph tests are concerned.

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But on the other hand, I can be open when I see something that interests me and I think there's something to it.

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I'm not afraid to say so.

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See, most people will just play it cool.

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I feel the same way about a number of other things too, where I'm not at least a bit bashful with astrology.

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Far too much smoke for there not to be some fire there.

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Most people that are opponents of astrology never even ask anyone what their sign is and watch them.

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I ask everyone.

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I go visiting to the Army School in Fort McClellan.

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They take me to the commanding colonel.

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First thing I ask him is, what's your sign?

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I don't want to talk about polygraph.

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What's your sign?

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And I watch him and I listen to him and he wants to talk about plants.

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So I mean, once you open these people up, you can get them talking about these things.

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But this closed mindedness that seems to exist because people are afraid of what someone else will think is not a situation that I share.

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So as far as polygraph examiners, you must be sure you have an open minded examiner.

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Now, there is a difference as far as the state of the art is concerned among polygraph examiners and the technique that they're using.

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Our technique and our problems internally in the polygraph field are heading in a very good direction.

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But there is a difference as far as the modern technique that some will use and maybe less modern other examiners will use.

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Now, you people throughout the country are not in a position to know which is which I am.

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And I'm not afraid to tell you or them.

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So in fact, I go around the country giving advanced work conferences on a polygraph technique and enhancing a technique over the, you know,

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make sure that the developments that are being used are built into the operating polygraph examiner's work.

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OK, so now what I'd suggest to you.

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First, I really would have loved on the Travis Walton case just to the thing is I was supposed to have tested all of these individuals.

325
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Unfortunately, in the only way that they got class involved in the same because otherwise to me, he'd be absolutely and totally unimportant.

326
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Was that Travis Walton and class apparently got into it.

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I have a file this thick and it's the thickest file in the case I never had.

328
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I've ever had. And class was to pay for the examinations if they passed.

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And if they flunked, then that pro is to pay for the examinations.

330
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And this is why this is the thing that got class involved more deeply in which ordinarily shouldn't have happened.

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And I think probably some lessons have been learned about that since then.

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All right. What I'm going to suggest to you as far as polygraph is concerned is don't hesitate to contact me regarding competent, capable,

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capable polygraph examiner's in certain geographic areas.

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We're quite acquainted with examiner's throughout the country.

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And a lot of our graduates, the quality of the work we know are located all over the country, Canada, and even in foreign countries.

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I would also suggest that you don't stop as far as the report of the polygraph examiner's concerned,

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but a quality control be done where you have two or three man quality control team that will review the chart results and the test will be given on that basis.

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Now, you see here, my motto is the charts must speak for themselves.

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It must be on those charts. We don't want anyone reading behavioral feedback or body language or enacting their prejudices.

340
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As far as the results are concerned, I'm not saying that happens a lot, but occasionally it could happen.

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And by doing quality control, the Army does this and every test that they run anywhere in the world within a week comes to Fort Halliburton.

342
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And they're reviewed by a quality control team. This is a feasible thing.

343
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We have the reading of polygraph charts down now where we're now working on programming a computer where a computer can scan these things.

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Computer couldn't do the earlier phases, but they certainly can.

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The computer, it should be feasible to do the final interpretation, which certainly would leave subjectivity out of it.

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So feel free to contact me also in setting up the quality control teams because I as chairman of the research committee for each of the major and only two national organizations.

347
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Well, I'll be glad to help you in any way I can on that.

348
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And I think that we can actually apply polygraph in a less risky way.

349
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Now, there is something in Jack Jack, the lie, the latest book on messengers of deception that may seem in conflict.

350
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What I've said, he takes off in the polygraph a little bit there because he may have had some bad experiences.

351
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I don't know that he mentions nine points and I have answers to each of those nine points if somebody wants to contact me separately.

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They're not big problems. In other words, if the thing is done properly, set up properly, executed properly, each of the nine criticisms that he has can be coped with rather nicely.

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Time is up. I appreciate your patience and thank you very much.